Monday, August 2, 2010

About Turbah: saying it is necessary for salat is a bidah

As I have said often (we may agree to disagree) I believe some Shia sisters add something to salat when they use a turbah (stating something or natural fibre ect like dirty, clay, or reeds, must be used for salat during prostration, ie you know that time when your head is on the ground????).

Adding something to salat that the Prophet Mohamed sallalahu alahi wa salaam did not is called a bidah. Honestly I don't think praying with your arms at your sides is a bida my shia & ibhadhi sisters. I think it is mustahaab (beneficial) to fold them across your chest in the manner most often done by the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi wa salaam but I don't think it is a bidah to keep them at your sides. Just better the other way, as that IS more OFTEN the sunnah. Anyyyyyyyways, I have gone off topic as I tend to do....

I often feel that some shia sisters (and brothers) are missing the whole point of the hadith they quote to claim as proof that we are to use turbah. We can pray on anything clean is what the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi wa salaam was saying, and he simply told us that earth, ie dirt and clay is clean. For example, dirt, clay, tile, ect are ALL clean. Praying on a surface of dirt or clay itself is not the bidah!!!!! Yes, my Sunni sisters with less than perfect adab, that is true! That the earth and the materials it contains EXCEPT FOR THOSE WE WERE EXPRESSLY TOLD WERE HARAAM are for us to pray on: In the Quran, Allah (SWT) has said "We have created for you the earth to prostrate on". So we know we are to pray on every corner of the globe, from the mountains, the snow, to deserts, and in our homes. Unless we were named something of the earth that was no halal to do so upon.
WHAT IS A BIDA is saying the clay or dirt are necessary for salat or make the salat more the sunnah. That's the bidah. *****Bringing a piece of clay in from somewhere so pray on? This is adding extra material to one's salat, an object, something the Prophet Salalahu alahi wa salaam NEVER DID.************ warnings, flashing lights, around this one. As if driving, use caution on this.

Those that do so from Karbala usually hold a narrative of hadiths (innovated and fabricated sources alas, and I am sorry to say this because so many of my shia sisters who I believe have been given falsified accounts) that "CLAIM" that Umm Salamah heard the Prophet say that clay from this place would turn red when his grandson Hussayn was killed. This is a false hadith of a chain of narration THAT DOES not date to the time period of the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi wa salaam, or even four generations AFTER. It dates to a time period of the Persian Empire. So that is not evidence.

Looking at sahih evidence that sister Zaenab provided from her blog "Stylish Muslimah" [she is of the opinion in support of turbah---and has great fashion sense mashaAllah] I still say... you are misreading the point of the ahadith (in my opinion). Which is as I have stated numerous times on the same issue. Clean is halal.
I asked (and sister Zaenab tried, and Zaenab jazzakallah kheir for real and am sincere in this) someone to provide me a solid chain of narration stating the Prophet brought a piece of dirt with him inside on top of another clean surface to pray on. I said if one could, I would change my mind.

So here goes what I have been given so far [though I myself STILL have not read the hadiths in their full narration in the original Arabic and would like to]:

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri: I saw Allah's Apostle prostrating in mud and water and saw the mark of mud on his forehead.
[Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 12, no. 798; vol. 3, book 33, no. 244]

As I've said before, the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi wa salaam told us that praying on dirt was clean and halal, not that it was a requirement of salat. This hadith does not prove a requirement of turbah, only of the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi wa salaam praying OUTSIDE, and that obviously, mud may be dirty, but it is 100% clean and halal to use as a surface for salat.
Narrated Anas bin Malik: We used to pray with the Prophet in scorching heat, and if someone of us could not put his face on the earth (because of the heat) then he would spread his clothes and prostrate over them.
[Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 2, book 22, no. 299]

Some will twist this hadith to say that the only time YOU ARE ALLOWED to use a mat ect and not dirt is if it too hot. Did the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi salaam say that? No. Does this hadith prove that. No. It says they prayed on the ground unless it was too hot. You know why? He did not wish to put his clothes on the ground. Clothing back then was a wealth and more of an expense than it is nowadays due to the time it took to make things. This hadith does not show use of a turbah or a requirement of earth. IN FACT IT SAYS HE USED HIS CLOTHING!

Narrated Maymuna: Allah's Apostle used to pray on a Khumra.
[Al-Bukhari, Sahih (English translation), vol. 1, book 8, no. 378]
According to al-Shawkani, a famous Sunni scholar, more than ten Companions of the Prophet (s) have narrated traditions mentioning his prostration on a Khumrah. And he lists all the Sunni sources recording these traditions which include Sahih Muslim, Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan al-Nasa'i and many others.
[Al-Shawkani, Nayl al-Awtar , Chapter of Prostration on the Khumrah, vol. 2, p. 128]

So what is a khumrah?A khumra IS A PRAYER MAT!!!!!!!!! It is not dirt brought into the home, or CLAY!!!! This hadith DISPROVES to me any claim that a turbah required, and yet is used as proof for a turbah? Yes, a khumra ie prayer mat is made out of natural materials like palm fibers in the Prophet's day, they didn't HAVE IKEA back then!!!!!!!!!! LOL. Synthetics weren't invented until the last 100 years or so. I am sorry but I am still looking for a hadith that says the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi wa salaam brought a piece of dirt or clay into his home and stuck his head on it for salat. I have been made more certain of my stance, not less so, by the evidence provided.
And for the anon, I took out the Santa Caluse comment because it could be misconstrued as judgemental ect.... and I am not. [if you would like to edit my wording please help me to do so because my aim is not to judge or alienate anyone but to share opinions and facts and beliefs ect].
I love ALL my sisters in Islam, and alot of Sunnis do bidahs too, which I want to write more about soon, and WILL. For example, when a Shia sis is using a khumra made from palm leave and you have got your cotton sajadah, if you try and tell her what she is using is not of the Sunnah, and that she is out of the fold of Islam for what she's done, YOU MAY be, for simply being WRONG, and stating something Allah subhanhu wa ta'ala NEVER DID.
Which is why I was upset hearing about one of my shia sis kicked in the head during her Hajj. IF I WAS MUTTAWA I would simply say, "teach me why you are doing what you are doing, and then I will show you why I think that is not right, and we may both learn from eachother." WHICH IS THE SUNNAH of the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi wa salaam. People are often afraid of what they do not understand or what they cannot control. If I do not agree with your understanding after I showed you all that I knew, I may be upset, but I know that is for Allah to judge then, and all that is left is to pray for your guidance, and indeed guidance for me that I am on the correct path (go Surah Al Fatiha!!!!).
As Muslims our aim is to teach and to warn eachother. Not kick eachother in the head or belittle others.
If I honestly think I am right, I should be able to teach you or lead by example. I shouldn't have to drive you from places where I like to pray. AAaaaaaaaaaand that is my last thought for the day:). Love you all for the sake of Allah.


Banana Anne said...

I don't think I've ever heard a Shi'a claim that it is necessary to pray on a turbah for the prayer to be valid, but then again I have not studied the Shi'a school much. Even if it is not bidah, I think it could very easily become one, especially with the emphasis on using a turbah made out of clay from Makkah or Karbala One of my Shi'a friends uses a turbah (made from Karbala clay) with the phrase "Ya Husayn" etched into it, which I think is a big mistake (when you pray and prostrate you are to honor ALLAH only).
As far as praying with one's arms at their sides, I don't have a problem with it. In the Maliki madhab (which is what I tend to follow), people pray with their hands by their sides (I pray with my hands on my chest, but maybe one day I will pray with my arms on my sides insha'Allah).

Zaenab said...

We have to agree to disagree here but the turbah does not constitute a biddah because it is not promoting a new belief but rather simplifying the practicing of a recognised Prophetic tradition that the Prophet Muhammed (SAW) and his companions (RA) practised. The Prophet and his companions prostrated on turab (dust) or something like palm leaves, and Muslims copy them by prostrating on the turbah made of dust. The turbah makes copying the Prophet's sunnah easier - that is not a bidah.

I'd like to add that I don't think a turbah is the only thing you can do sujood on. Anything organic that has originated from the earth is fine. In the Quran, Allah (SWT) has said "We have created for you the earth to prostrate on". I think that's pretty clear. I will try and find the Iya if you want.


P.S. I'm glad you like my fashion lol

Radeyah راضية said...

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: I saw Allah's Apostle prostrating in mud and water and saw the mark of mud on his forehead. (Book #12, Hadith #798)
Abu Sa'eed used to relate that he had seen the Prophet prostrating on wet mud, so much so that he could see mud stains on his forehead.

Saheeh Bukhari, Part I, p. 104
The Prophet declared that the best place for prostration was the earth, or upon something that grows from the earth.

Kanz-ul-Ummal, Part 4., p. 113
(Famous Sunni book of Hadith)

The Prophet said to his wife Umm Salma, " Bring me the Khumra from the mosque." The word Khumra means a small piece of chatai made from palm leaf, on which only the head could be rested
when prostrating. lbn-Athir, in his Jami-al-Usool has written, "Khumra is the Sajdagah (Persian word meaning "prostration place") upon which the Shias of our time perform their prostrations."
I (i.e. Maulana Zamankhan) maintain that by this Hadith it is Sunnat to keep a Sajdagah. Those who forbid it and call it the way of the Rafizites (Shiites) are wrong. To practice this Sunnat, I often perform my prostrations on a fan made from palm leaf,
and I do not care about the criticism of the ignorant. We are concerned only with the Sunnat of the Prophet (SAA), regardless of whether they call it the way of the Rafizites or the Kharijites. Let them rave about it.

Maulana Vahidul Zamankhan (Sunni Alim),

Anonymous said...

Asalamu Alaikum sis,

I understand your point however I feel the manner this post was written in can be offensive if any Shia sisters or brothers are reading it. You can prove your point without sounding like you are mocking.

Radeyah راضية said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

why even make a point of this ? some advice for you sis, dont be so concerned with what others do. always writing judgmenets and admonishments.. id be scared of your own judgment. only allah will judge us all; its never been and never will your role. remember and let go of your frustrations and 'concern' with other muslims. increase your peace, and have more detachment from dunia.

Pixie said...

banana anne: praying with the hands at the sides is halal but praying with the crossed over the chest is mustahaab and the sunnah so don't change from that!!!! LOL

But neither freak out on those who keep their hands at the sides. It is halal.

Pixie said...

Zaenab: a bidah is adding anything to salat the Prophet Mohamed salalahu alahi wa salaam didn't, by my definition. If you agree with that definition, he never brought clay or stones ect on top of another clean surface like tile or stone or even cotton.

So I believe the diagram above illustrates what is a practice of the sunnah, and those which are innovated practices.

And you do have a great blog. sorry I haven't updated my blog roll in a long time.

Pixie said...

Radeyah: yes, using prayer mats, or other clean materials, is totally halal. Using stones from Kerbala or bringing rocks into the masjids to prostrate on? Totally not.

Pixie said...

Anon: wa alaikom e salaam ramatullahi wa barakto, I read your comment and edited one phrase. I am not trying to belittle anyone and if you have wording suggestions on how my tone can be softened because I have often been told it comes off as harsh on the blog, please let me know.

Pixie said...

Radeyah: LOL, your welcome I guess, though this post sums up what I think is wrong with some Shia's salat practices. But I get you. Using a khumra of palm leaves the Prophet did do. He also rose a mule. Both are halal, but not necessarily what I feel the point of what he was demonstrating to us:) But I think knowledge is power. I don't mind learning about Shiaism, or Sunni, or Ibadhi ect so long as the sources are correct. My understanding will never be Shia though because the concepts of the "bait" of rasoolulah include ALL his wives and companions ect. I believe the very message of Islam is against following a bloodline. I choose to follow the best qualified caliph, not the most genetically linked to Rasoolulah, because this is what the Prophet's own words expressed to me, that no man's tribe (ie family name) make him better than another but by deeds. and I don't believe Ali (may Allah be pleased with him, and bless him) was sinless. So I'd fail at being shia right off.

Pixie said...

Anon August 3, 2010 11:12 PM:
Wa alaykom e salaam ramatullahi wa barakto. Hmmmm. Why make a point? Because like a parent who loves its child, a muslim should love its ummah and want to keep its ummah from learning bad habits ect, things that are not Islamic.

That is my Islamic answer.

My personal one: Regard your own advise."let go of your frustrations and 'concern' with other muslims. increase your peace, and have more detachment from dunia" Yes, if you followed your own advise, you wouldn't even be commenting on my blog.

My blog is my self-education, what I learnt, how I am learning. It is not my "judgements" of others. Allah will judge them. But He also tells us to right what we know is wrong or incorrect by our hands, and if not with that, then with our voices, and if we cannot do that, then by refraining from the same wrong ourselves.

My first concern is, am I doing this wrong? If I am, I don't want to speak on it really.

If I can help somebody else though, of course I will. The Muslims are supposed to care for eachother. And neither sister Zaenab or I are hurt or hating eachother for eachother's opinions and practices. If we are both convinced we are right, then yes, Allah will judge. But it IS up to us to learn from eachother.

My blog probably isn't the right place for you. So "be detached from this dunia" somewhere else. Unless you can understand the real point behind such a blog.

Masalama, and no hard feelings. Afterall, you are anonymous.

;) Love Pixie

Anonymous said...

sister, you know I have the greatest respect for you...but really, I'm rather tired of the occasional posts which bring up aspects of the shia'a madthab which you disagree with. This is supposed to be a fashion it not? So you disagree with aspects of the shia'a madthab, I'm sure many disagree with the salafism or the hanafi madthab or the shaifi madthab. I don't think its necessary as it seems like you are "picking" on the madthab. I might disagree with certain things you agree with but I don't post it on my blog as its out of my blogs scope.

anyway, I digress, have you considered bringing up your "issues" with certain aspects of the shia'a madthab on discussion groups or sites where this is welcomed? For example...ShiaChat...?

Just a suggestion.

Otherwise, I'm glad to see you posting again, just enshallah...sans the madthab "issues" posts.

Ayesha said...

sisters, need I remind you that even synthetic materials orginate from the earth? As in from bio-fuels?
Umm, I am finding this discussion funny as there are more important stuff to talk about (e.g dhikr?) then what you pray on. A girl in college scrutinized me while I prayed then told me what I was doing wrong. I told her "Alhumdulillah I prayed today, which is something I am struggling with. I am not worried about whether my knees are together or not, just that when I do sajood, am I truly there in my act and contemplating Allah."
Allah knows best.

Pixie said...

Umm Ibrahim: wa alaykom e salaam ramatullahi wa barakto. In this post here

I recently mentioned that I had said all I had wanted to say about hijab. So while this blog started as that it is not the point of the blog.

Being in Oman, surrounded by different faiths than my own, ie Shia, Ibahhi, I am in fact the minority, which I had not been before. I am a history student and love anything to do with history, and this post wasn't against shia. In fact, it was that some thing shia sisters do ARE halal (not all) and the bidas sunni sisters make ect by making haraam that which is not haraam. For example, getting mad at a shia sis who uses a khumra in her home for salat made out of palm leaves.

It is my blog and I do intend to write more on these matters as I have been studying with a group of shia sisters and we have been discussing matters of fiqh and Islamic history and I have quote enjoyed it. I learnt about some Sunni prejudices, and from some of my Ibadhi sisters, also some Sunni bidas ect, which I DO intend to post on also. LOL, no one will escape the historical facts ect... I will also write on why i think some Ibadhi practices are wrong ect.

I have been reading alot from Sunni and Shia sources about the Seerah and events up to Kerbala ect... and I have enjoyed it, both sides are horribly prejudiced, and have written historically inaccurate things, and I love Oman because this is a country where it is open to discuss ect, and learn from eachother and no one is like, get out of my books or my masjid ect.

Pixie said...

Ayesha: lol that is why I say Allah says all from the earth except what He told us not use are halal and no extra materials are required.

It IS a silly issue, but it is dividing the Muslims because of percieved prejudices and misunderstandings.

But praying exactly how the Prophet Mohamed prayed IS important because of all the things, salat is the only one of the revealed above the heavens. That means is it is DIRECT from Allah SWT. So it is very risky changing it, or allowing mistakes to be become what is accepted as how the Prophet Mohamed SAW prayed.

Jamilah said...


I just wanted to add that the only reason that Imam Malik ever prayed with his arms down is that he was beaten so badly for trying to spread the true Islam that he could not raise his arms. He never intented for people to immitate him, and would have wanted people to follow the sunnah of the Prophet saws.

Anonymous said...

As salaam alaikum,

I have a lot of concerns about posts such as these.

Besides everything else, i feel your tone extremely belittling. The way you present the matter, you sound very condescending. Instead of calling it "a piece of earth or pure mud", you went to far to call it "stones" and "rocks" and "dirt"

You said, "teach me why you are doing what you are doing, and then I will show you WHY I THINK THAT IS NOT RIGHT"

even before beginning the "learning for each other" you have made up your mind that the shia sister is WRONG. LOL
You also said somewhere, show me if the Prophet (SAWW) stuck his head in dirt to prostrate.." In your whole attempt to "show the right path to your shia sisters" you without realizing spoke about the Prophet (SAWW) so badly! naudobillah.

You could go on with your justifications, but honestly it doesn't seem like you respect your shia sisters as you claim to. On one hand you write you do, and on the other say condescending things about their practices in a belittling tone.

Shias have their beliefs backed up by QUR'AN, HADITH and SUNNAH. It's not in vaccum.

"Saheeh Bukhari, Part I, p. 104
The Prophet declared that the best place for prostration was the earth, or upon something that grows from the earth."

You interpretation and the interpretations of shia scholars does vary. I feel very secure and comfortable with prostrating on a turbah. And it surely is not bidah. Your dissertation on the topic does not "make it ever so clear" how its bidah. This is your personal interpretation which i think is swaying away from truth. But again, thats juts me right.

I think it's closer to the Prophet (SAWW)'s sunnah to prostrate on turbah. But i do think its halal that my sunni bros and sisters do not prostrate on it. To each his own.

Besides your missing the whole point of INTENTION (which you shld agree is the foundation of all acts.) Shias prostrate on earth cuz they think its closer to sunnah and sunnis prostrate without cuz they think its closer to sunnah. And both are beautiful in their intentions and ways.

Thats how we live in peace! Not by telling ppl "I'm so concerned about your akhira..I'm like a parent" nobody likes their personal views imposed upon them! And this is what your dissertation is. You own personal interpretation of hadith.

Besides, no one told you to become shia that u explain why shiism will fall for you.

And FYI, because you brought it up, Shias are not obsessed with "bloodline" they are obsessed with VIRTUE. Ali (A.S) was chosen by the Prophet and we respect him so much cuz of his VIRTUE not bloodline! For shias, virtue comes first then the blood. We look out for the BEST one. Inshallah you'll clear this misconception.

Also, the maliki have their hands on the side while praying cuz they believe its MUSTAHAB to do so. Thats the reason why they do so in the first place. So yea, again, whats mustahab for you may not be so for other schools.

Anywho, i don't wish to start an argument or debate because there is no scope for it when you present a matter in this way. You'll come back with your justification and further explanation and i with mine. In the end, we both will stick to our own views. You already think shias are WRONG. And i am very secure with my beliefs.

Soo.. yea peace!

This was my first visit to your blog...i probably won't come back cuz the way you present matters is very "I'm right an your wrong".. very turning off.

May Allah guide us all . Ameen!
And salaam to you sister.

Anonymous said...

everything is from the earth .. we all return to the earth .. laying your head on a piece of clay from a grave site ... hmmm ....tribes would build statues of heroes and warriors ... generations later those statues became worshiped.

Radeyah راضية said...

On reading all this again, I've decided that im gonna pray on cotton or straw mats or evwn paper but an actual turbah anymore, My parents are sunni and they had a reasoning with me, seeing as no one can interpret the correct meaning of the hadiths its best to play it safee xxxx