Sunday, July 26, 2009

For Umi: what the Bible says about Islam and why Muslims don`t follow the Bible

This video above shows with quotes from the Qu'ran and the ahadiths and the Christian Bible the commands to call the prayer, wash for the prayer, and motions for the prayer.

This video below shows the proofs and prophecies in the old and new testaments of the Christian Bible that foretold the coming of the Prophet Mohammed sallalahu alahi wa salaam:

And why Muslims do not follow the Bible (I studied archeology and history and after studying the subject, I just couldn`t BE a Christian---but the Qu`ran's sources had not changed, unlike the Bible):












AND this is what was banned from the Bible`s sources:























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22 comments:

OumAmir said...

So. . . .


Where does your Qur'an say the Bible is corrupt?

Pixie said...

Oum Amir: Don't you mean OUR Qu'ran, because every Muslim has the same Qu'ran? You would know that, if you were indeed a Muslimah.

But since you only comment on my posts on Christianity, I am more than a little skeptical.

All Muslims follow the messages of Allah's propehts, including Jesus aka Isa alahi wa salaam, but we do not recognize the Bible as a valid source, since alot of the records in there are fabricated, other left out, and NONE of IT remains in its original translation. The Bible, can be referred to, as a very weak collection of ahadith but it requires a scholar to obtain the oringal sources, date them, look at other complilations. The Bible itself is fun for scholars, but the everyday person would never be able to get guidance from it as messed up as it is. In the Qu'ran we have a complete guide as Allah informs us in His Qu'ran, "On this day I have perfected for you your religion." And this is historically accurate.

OumAmir said...

So. . .

How do you deal with the fact that the Qur'an says,
‏وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَىٰٓ ءَاثَ رِهِم بِعِيسَى ٱبْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًۭا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوْرَىٰةِ ۖ وَءَاتَيْنَ هُ ٱلْإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًۭى وَنُورٌۭ وَمُصَدِّقًۭا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوْرَىٰةِ وَهُدًۭى وَمَوْعِظَةًۭ لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ
(5:46)

Specifically, " بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ".

Now, I read classical Arabic well enough, and I double checked the translation of bayna yadahi. Literally it means, "between his hands."

Now, I know you'd probably claim the Taurat used by Isa is radically different than what is found in OTs today, but the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all the books of the modern OT, except for Esther, in addition to extra-biblical writings, and these scrolls confirm the LXX and Hebrew OT used for modern translation.

The Qur'an also reguarly exhorts ahl al kitaab to use their own scriptures to "judge therein"


‏وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ ٱلتَّوْرَىٰةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ ٱللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِنۢ بَعْدِ ذَٟلِكَ ۚ وَمَآ أُو۟لَٟٓئِكَ بِٱلْمُؤْمِنِينَ
(5:43)

‏وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ ٱلْإِنجِيلِ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُو۟لَٟٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْفَٟسِقُونَ
5:47

‏وَحَسِبُوٓا۟ أَلَّا تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌۭ فَعَمُوا۟ وَصَمُّوا۟ ثُمَّ تَابَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ ثُمَّ عَمُوا۟ وَصَمُّوا۟ كَثِيرٌۭ مِّنْهُمْ ۚ وَٱللَّهُ بَصِيرٌۢ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ
(5:71)

We have a plethora of manuscripts and writings that demonstrate the canon used by the 7th century. Why would the Qur'an command the ahl al-kitaab to judge by those corrupted scriptures.

How do you recify your endorsement of scholars who claim primative manipulation of the Biblical text with the Qur'an which asserts the People of the Book have the correct scriptures?

Pixie said...

Oum Amir: lol, how poor your attempt is to not even answer the question I addressed to you.

I am talking, in this post, mainly about the new testament of the Bible, not the old (of the Jews) as this post was addressed to one particular Christian I know, since most Christians believe the revelation of the new testament cancels out much from the old. The new testament is very hodge-podge in how it is put together, and the Qu'ran would confirm almost all the facts of the old testament, darling, so no one is arguing with you on that one.

Anyways, I'll have more time to write a better response to your attempt to discredit this post when I get home from work this evening.

Are you a Muslim?

OumAmir said...

Pixie-

"since most Christians believe the revelation of the new testament cancels out much from the old."

Which Christians are these? And what do you mean by 'cancels out'?

"The new testament is very hodge-podge in how it is put together,"

Such as which books? Can you document your statement?

"confirm almost all the facts of the old testament,"

Except for where the Qur'an disagrees with the Old Testament stories on the creation of woman, the fall of first man, the fall of Shaytaan, the Flood and Noah, Ibrahim's sacrifice of his son, the sin of Lut, the Exodus, and other stories.

You seem to admit to the reliability of the Old Testament as the Qur’an attests to it. But the same Qur’an, in the same passage, attests to the veracity of New Testament as well:

Again:
“Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.”

‏وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ ٱلْإِنجِيلِ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُو۟لَٟٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْفَٟسِقُونَ
5:47

Why would the Qur’an tell Christians to judge by their Gospel if their Gospel is corrupted?

As for my religion, why, might I ask, is it relevant to your post?

Pixie said...

Oum Amir: the new testament was written waaaay after the life of Isa alahi wa salaam. Did you watch the video documentaries posted? the contain archeological and historical concrete proof. It lists all the sources that tell you what was left out, what was changed to suit what someone wanted.

Muslims believe the old testament was changed because people took what the Jewish priesthood said over what Allah S.W.T.. The Qu'ran commands us Muslim not to do this as in be like the Christians and the Jews. Anyways, THIS is what the Qu'ran says about the Bible:

Torah - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).1
Psalms - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).
Gospel - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

Muslims know this was true---the Prophets before mOhammed DID recieve the message, and some fragments of it remain documented in the Bible, but the Qu'ran also states:

"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity,"
10:64).

Christians often take this out of context to mean the Gospels but it is referring to the words of Allah revealed to the Prophet Mohammed---being the same as those revealed to Jesus and others before they were translated and reinterpreted by others'.

My question is valid since you call yourself Oum Amir (a Muslim name) but quote in accordance with Christian sites like this http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/islam/quran-says-bible-not-corrupt . I just want to know what your agenda is. Whether you acknowledge the Qu'ran as a valid source and the Messenger of Allah as a Prophet does depend on what kind of evidence I should use to engage you in debate. I don't think you are a Muslim though.

Pixie said...

To your question: because those corrupted scriptures still contain the oringal message "worship no God before God" and in context, the Qu'ran asks all those who disbelieve to examine what books they may write and come up with something that exceeds the Qu'ran, even a single chapter. It is not used in the context you mention.

Anonymous said...

Since when is Oum Amir a muslim name Pixie? Honestly, since you're married to an Arab i'd think you would know better than all the other Canadian idiots out there who think that anything Arab = muslim. Maybe you should broaden your horizons and meet other Arabs who are not muslim and (gasp, shock, the horror) have arab names including, yes, the name Amir



--kh

Milda Spin2liux said...

Salaam!

To Anonymous kh:
I feel sorry you feel stereotyped, must admitt, and Pixie probably knows herself, how stereotyped arab people nowadays are. But in my sisters defens, do not call canadians idiots! That is doing just as what you feel others are doing to you: negative stereotyping! ok...?

OumAmir:
to reference of your given ayat 5:47 and the issue of people being judged according to their book, i would like to say that at its origin it was the true message until changed and corrupted. While the people knew its true message, they would be judged upon that. Once the final revelation came, the Quran, it cancelled out the previous one. Unless you lived in a place where you'd never heard of Islam, the person would be judged according to the final revelation, Islam.
This is the opinion I have formed after reading what Quran has to say about the people of the book.
Pixie, you might be more knowledgable, could you get some referance to shown (in)validity?

Pixie said...

Kh: of course there are arabs that are not Muslim (did I say something contrary to that?) but the blogs on the net are often stalked by those trying to cause drama, lol, and I am guessing this Oum Amir is Christian, but we had a Hindu chica PRETENDING to be Muslim trying to cause drama on Ange's Hegab rehab blog so i had to ask:D

OumAmir said...

“old testament was changed because people took what the Jewish priesthood said over what Allah S.W.T”



Changed how? In the text? But you’ve already agreed that the Old Testament text is sound, and the Qur’an attests to that. In the way the priests and scribes applied and taught the text? No disagreement there, large chunks of Isaiah are devoted to condemning the apostate priestly class - yet that doesn't mean that the text itself has been changed.



“Muslims know this was true---the Prophets before mOhammed DID recieve the message, and some fragments of it remain documented in the Bible, but the Qu'ran also states:”



Fragments of it? Then the rest of the text has been corrupted? But you've agreed that the Qur’an attests to the truth of those same scriptures. So which is it- corrupted or not?



“"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).
"For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity,"
10:64).”



I didn’t bring up any of these texts earlier. Although I’m quite happy you did. Sura 6:34 refers to 'messengers before thee', i.e. the earlier prophets. If "there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah" how does this support your position? Considering, again, that we know what books were used by Jews and Christians by seventh century, how do you align the Qur'anic teaching with all of the videos that you posted? None of these ayat quoted above state that the OT or the NT itself is changed, altered, deleted, or redacted. In fact, it reinforces earlier commands to “judge by therein” as "no change can there be in the words of Allah."



Milda:

" i would like to say that at its origin it was the true message until changed and corrupted."



My response is to challenge this very idea - that the Bible (OT or NT) has been changed so the original message is obscured. How can a people "judge therein" in a book that is so altered from the original meaning that it has been lost?

OumAmir said...

In regards to my name, yes, my name actually is Oum Amir. I have a son named Amir. And when I go to the local Middle Eastern grocery to buy sumac and 1 gallon containers of olive oil and some one shouts, "ya Oum Amir!" I am one of the ten-odd women who turn.

And since when was responding to the viewpoints of bloggers who write in a public forum about topics that can be investigated and challenged 'causing drama'?

Pixie said...

Oum Amir: As I already said to you "All Muslims follow the messages of Allah's propehts, including Jesus aka Isa alahi wa salaam, but we do not recognize the Bible as a valid source, since alot of the records in there are fabricated, other left out, and NONE of IT remains in its original translation." I will add, even the dead sea scrolls, are not written during the timer period of any of the propeht's recognized by Islam.

You asked me: "How do you recify your endorsement of scholars who claim primative manipulation of the Biblical text with the Qur'an which asserts the People of the Book have the correct scriptures?"

I rectify by saying this is not what the Qu'ran is saying, by any means, that is twisting the ayah. As I ALREADY said to you "To your question: because those corrupted scriptures still contain the oringal message "worship no God before God" and in context, the Qu'ran asks all those who disbelieve to examine what books they may write and come up with something that exceeds the Qu'ran, even a single chapter. It is not used in the context you mention." This is what [the Qur'an also reguarly exhorts ahl al kitaab to use their own scriptures to "judge therein"] means IN CONTEXT.

You THEN say to me ""The new testament is very hodge-podge in how it is put together,"

Such as which books? Can you document your statement?" Um, though I doubt you watched them, this very post contains TWO documentaries that go one about how made up and how many things were changed and left out of both the new and old testament to suit a political climate or social veiw.

You ask me alot of questions but dance around the TWO of mine that were quite specific.

Did you a. watch both documentaries?
and b. Are you a Muslim.

I never said your name wasn't Oum Amir. I never accused you of starting trouble (I just alluded that others have) and I want to know if you are a Muslim or a Christian or an atheist or a jew. As it is my blog, and since you can't even ask the questions I put to you, I won't bother posting and answering YOUR questions unless you apply the same courtesy to me. You know I am a Muslim. You have the advantage. I just know you talk like a bible college babe, lol, and use alot of Christian rhetoric.

I also want to say, that as a Muslim, I don't believe in the old testament as a book, or the new testament, as an existing book, and nor does the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran DOES confirm the existance of the Prophets of these books though, and mentions they were given the injeel, but that these were not a perfect guidance for all of mankind. I will now work on posting every ayah to that effect. But you know this already. And if you want to bother commenting, you should do me the courtesy of answering my questions. Because, a. no Christian is allowed to hide their faith in Christianity, b. I as a Muslim would never be ashamed to say, I am a Muslim. I want to knwo your background, because as a Christian, you won't except the proof of the Qu'ran as you don't recognize it, so it would be a waste of time on my part.

Pixie said...

Proof from the Holy Qu'ran that Muslims do not follow the Bible or the Torah as such works have been corrupted:

Allah warns the children of Israel referencing both the Christians and the Jews because Jesus/Isa alahi wa salaam came only to the Jewish nation with the message he bore "Do not confound truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth." [Surah al-bakarah 2:41-2.42]. Why would Allah subhanhu wa ta'ala warn against something if it could not be done?

Allah subhanu wa ta'ala said to those who had the message that became the Bible and the Torah '"Grasp fervently what We have given you, and bear in mind its precepts, that you may guard yourselves from evil.' Yet after that you turned away, and but for God's grace and mercy you would have been among the lost. " [Surah Al Bakarah 2:63-2:64]. This ayah speaks of the guidance of of the injeel towards tauhid and the laws of Allah subhanhu wa ta'ala, but that the Jews and the Christians turned away from the message given, and they would have been lost forver from that pure truth, had Allah subhanh wa'tala not been merciful enough to send the Prophet Mohammed salahu alahi wa salaam with a guide that Allah HIMSELF most high, would not allow to be corrupted.

Here is the proof that the message given in the injeel was known to be corrupted by the time of Mohammed sallalahu alahi wa salaam: "some of them have already heard the Word of God and knowingly perverted it, although they understood its meaning?" [Surah Al Bakarah 2:75] and "Woe betide those that write the scriptures with their own hands and then declare: 'This is from God,' in order to gain some paltry end. Woeful shall be their fate, because if what their hands have written, because of what they did!" [Surah Al Bakarah 2:27]. The Qu'ran also states of those who corrupted the injeel after being warned not to "Know they not that God knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?" [Surah Al Bakarah 2:77].

Pixie said...

Of the books of the Christians and the Jews Allah subhanhu wa ta'ala relates "If We abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We will replace it by a better one or one similiar." [Surah Al Bakarah 2:106]. He, the Most Merciful, says that the verses are lost of the injeel in its revealed form of the Messenger's of the injeel, He will give the believers something better ... The Qu'ran. When disputes arise about whether some of the Prophets were of one sect or another (Jewish or Christian) Allah subhanhu wa ta'ala advises Muslims to admonish by citing that both sects have hidden a testimony from God: " 'Do you claim that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, were all of Jews or Christians?' Say: 'Who knows better, you or God? Who is more wicked than the man who hides a tesimony he has recieved from God? God is never heedless of what you do.' [Surah Al Bakarah 2:140].

Oum Amir, I am sorry, I am not but 20 pages into the Qu'ran, and it already contradicts the base of EVERYTHING you are trying to say. History also corroborates. Watch the documentary maybe?

Stacy aka Fahiima said...

The first video relates to some notes I found in one of my old notebooks from college.I had a list of verses showing how Biblical prayer was originally similar to Muslim prayer b/c my Hebrew prof. and I were discussing the verb meaning to bow down or prostrate in the Hebrew text. Anyway, the postures of prayer are the same, but the 5 times of prayer are not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. There were originally 3 times of prayer, which were based upon the 3x of sacrifice in the Temple ritual.
There is another guy on YT who has videos of him praying Hebrew prayers in the Yemenite dialect and he bows down as he prays, as the original Israelites would have done. Very enlightening.
It might take me awhile to get through the other videos, but its information I have heard before while studying Textual Criticism.
God bless!

Aalia of Abu Dhabi said...

Hey "Oum Amir" -- good job on Google-ing websites such as www.answering-islam.com ;-)

OumAmir said...

Have I watched the documentaries? Yes, I have and quite a bit before your posting. Why did I not comment on the programs initially? Because it’s hard to take a program like that seriously with all of the suspenseful music and melodramatics interspersed with interviews of liberal scholars when one actually knows what they talking about.

It should be noted that the writings ‘banned from the Bible’ are mostly Gnostic texts that originate in the mid to late second century. None of the texts are from a first century Jewish context such as the Gospels, the Pastoral Epistles, Luke’s record of the Acts of the Apostles, and John’s Apocalypse. Instead, the Gnostic works rely heavily on a ‘secret knowledge’, an idea derived from the pagan mystery religions.

Have you ever actually looked at any of the scholarly works or do you rely solely on the History Channel?

You’ll note quite a few scholars featured in the documentaries such as Eileen Pagels, John Dominic Crossan, and Bart Ehrman. Interestingly, none of these people can be described as theists, much less Christian. Crossan has specifically denied the possibility of the miraculous in his debate with James White, and Ehrman’s agnosticism is fueled by the idea that if God inspired the text, then He’d never allow so much as a spelling mistake in the transmission and copying of the text (although there are textual variants in EVERY document of antiquity.)

This poses a problem for the Muslim, such as yourself, who relies on their research to substantiate claims of corruption and falsification. Their presuppositions applied the Qur’an in the same manner would rule out the possibility of inspiration (Ehrman), and any claim of its miraculous nature (Crossan.)

Inconsistency is the mark of a failed argument.

As for the ayat from Qur’an, nothing you’ve quoted actually illustrate changes to the text itself, but a variety of way people have manipulated that same text. Twenty pages in, and you still have not prove your point.

As for my religion, I’m an orthodox Christian.

Aalia of Abu Dhabi: I didn’t pull any of my information from that website, although I’m aware of its existence. I actually intereacted with Chawkat Moucarry’s The Prophet and the Messiah.

Pixie said...

Oum Amir: the quotes from the Qu'ran clearly document that the injeel could be tampered with, was, and those who did such are accursed. But, as I figured, since are a Christian, none of that would be evidence enough for you. You have proven NO point to me. I don't really feel like writing an essay on Christianity. Its sources are not directly formed from an sound chain of narration to the Prophet Isa alahi wa salaam, or any other of the Prophets. You saying that the Qu'ran proclaims the existant torah and Bible as unchanged and valid documents of law is false, and reputed by not even the first tewenty pages of Al Bakarah. For me, you'd have better luck if you tried to disprove the chain of narration of the Quran from those who knew the Prophet Mohammed sallalahu alahi wa salaam then you will ever have trying to convince me that the Bible is the whole unadulterated message of Allah, lol.

OumAmir said...

I take it that you're now going to disregard my questions?

Pixie said...

Oum Amir: no offense but this kinda bores me. A. the Qu'ran contradicts you. B. Archeological records from antiquity contradict the Bible. There is more than ONE version of the Bible. Yes, I learnt that from scholarly sources. I studied the dead sea scrolls in my schooling, and know that very few records were kept from anyone who could have existed at the same time as the prophets. I did say, I had no intention on writing an essay on the flaws of Christianity, and what is correct in Christianity (I am aim to be educated in Islam in the manner). If you want to, as I've suggested to you in the past, start your own blog. If and when I feel like it (and not WHEN YOU DEMAND IT), lol, I could come and debate, after heading down the to the library and calling up my old museum friends in London and Egypt. I don't keep a large Christian library in my flat, lol, or even a large Islamic one. Though if you wanna source about some event from prehistory, I've got alot of books on that lol. History, textual sources, all bear testament to the fact that the Bible consists of many versions, and those versions have undergone periods of re-writing. The Qu'ran documents this in the ayahs I have shown you. You can claim to get the meaning from the ayats I posted that people simply disobeyed the text of injeel, and not changed them, but then why would Allah subhanhu wa ta'ala mention "writing" "Woe betide those that write the scriptures with their own hands and then declare: 'This is from God,' in order to gain some paltry end. Woeful shall be their fate, because if what their hands have written, because of what they did!" [Surah Al Bakarah 2:27]. Anyways, peace be with you sister of the book. May God guide you and I to the straight path and His true message, ameen.

OumAmir said...

It's your blog and you're certainly welcome to whatever you care to post, but as long as you write and make claims in a public forum, I and many others will continue to challenge your ideas on the basis of consistency and accuracy.

You are a blogger and that is the nature of blogging.

Perhaps you and I will be in a scholarly setting for a public moderated debate sometime in the future. I would enjoy that.